I'm not a native speaker. Can someone check the last paragraph about the Hamburg Institute for Sexual Research with respect to linguistics? Thanks! --Amys 17:21, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Statistical problems
The various survey summaries do not really do justice to the referenced articles.
The first summary cites some research that talks about sexual behavior only, in the United States only. The article is accurately quoted, but I'm not sure the attribution of the ultimate source is correct. Certainly it's incomplete, and moreover you can't access the original study from the link given.
The second summary is not clear that this was a survey in Calgary, Canada, only, and muddles behavior vs. self-identification, which is clear in the page referenced.
The third summary should mention that the survey took place in 1992 in the United States only. The quote given is incorrect; it should be "for men...4.9% since 18 years [of age]". It's unclear whether this is self-identification or sexual behavior.
The change in numbers for the German studies seem extraordinary. The summary does not say whether these numbers are for behavior or for self-identification, and whether or not they are measuring the same thing in the same way in the two different years. Also, what is the demographic sample - West Germans? Inhabitants of a particular city? What was the impact of German reunification on the sample? I would seriously question the factual conclusion made in this paragraph unless this study has been replicated. I can't really evaluate the trustworthiness of this study because the pages cited are all in German.
In general, it should be mentioned that the "10%" figure is attributed to Kinsey; see Kinsey Reports for more info on that.
-- Beland 03:03, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think it was a nation-wide survey. But even if you criticise this study from a methodical point of view, it is nevertheless important to mention insofar as it gives a hint that those numbers need not be a constant. I mean, perhaps this is the reason why Kinsey achieved much higher numbers in the 40's. --Amys 03:16, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- My guess would be that it's a badly constructed study that is simply experiencing severe measurement errors. The Kinsey study are widely acknowledged as flawed, and there are (or should be) notes to that effect everywhere it is mentioned in Wikipedia. I have no basis for determining whether it's a reputable, well-constructed study or a junk survey done for PR or something, since the supporting material is in German. If these are not reliable numbers, they might need to be discarded, but could be kept with suitable context. I certainly wouldn't say that they proved anything until I knew whether or not they were reliable. -- Beland 01:14, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The broad assertion that "major historical shifts can occur in the prevalence of homosexuality" is simply not supported by the article it links to. The article mentions that fewer boys in 1990 in this particular study acknowledged having had homosexual experiences, but (if the combined efforts of my elementary German and Babelfish are correct in translating) it also explains that result as the result of changing social standards for self-identification, and not proof that there was necessarily such a dramatic change in their activity or their inclination. If it does respresent a decline in homosexual activity, it needs to be put in context of heterosexual activity among 17-year-old boys, which I'd bet was also a lot more prevalent in post-"Summer of Love" 1970 than in middle-of-the-AIDS-pandemic 1990. Even if you suppose that the study soundly demonstrates (as Amys seems to want) that there were simply fewer homosexual Jungen in Hamburg in 1990 than in 1970, that's still not a "major historical shift". It's a single datum about a small demographic. And for all we know, it just means that all the junge Stossenbumser in Hamburg were visiting Amsterdam to buy drugs when the 1990 study was done. :) Tverbeek 20:22, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Strange notion that anybody who has made same-sex sexual experience was a homosexual Junge. Obviously you see homosexuality as a condition and not a behaviour. What about the old Greeks? Was everybody "gay" in those times? That "major historical shifts can occur" is a platitude in view of historical knowledge about antiquity. Also compare the historical statistics of Michael Rocke's Forbidden Friendships. By the way, what is a "Stossenbumser"? Never heard of that! ;-) --Amys 01:29, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The broad assertion is indeed not supported by the articles the entry links to. And yes, they at least partly explain the much lower incidence of homosexual contacts (i.e. behaviour, not self-identification) as the result of changing social standards for self-identification, but not in the way Tverbeek seems to think. The reasons for that decline presented in the two articles are twofold: 1. Sexuality has become increasingly culturally demystified. As a result, sexual prohibitions and bans were lifted, sexual activity among older teenagers has become more or less generally accepted, boys and girls grow up together (instead of separated by sex, as seems to have been the case earlier - I'm not old enough to have experienced this myself). This cessation of sexual separation and sexual prohibitions is said to have "killed off the homophile phase" during puberty, although this is not further explained. (From the way these arguments are presented, they seem to be hinting at the easier availability of female sexual partners as a possible reason for the decline.) 2. The creation of a homosexual (and heterosexual) identity have ritualized and cemented both homo- and heterosexuality. This, and the tight connection of homosexuality to HIV/AIDS in the public mind, has led adolescent boys to forgo the "playful lust of mutual masturbation", which is now labelled a homosexual activity, for fear of being branded a "faggot". As for heterosexual activity among 17-year-old boys, the article mentions that as measured by the incidence of genital petting and sexual intercourse, there was no marked difference between 1970 and 1990.
- As for the quality of the studies, I don't have access to the studies themselves, so I can't analyze the data, but the Research Institutes for Sexuality in Frankfurt/Main and Hamburg have a good reputation. I would therefore assume a relatively broad sample basis, probably West Germany for both 1970 and 1990, and probably also East Germany for the 1990 data. An expanded version of the article on bvvp.de is available at the bzga.de site (the German Federal Center for Health Education), and they mention differences between East and West Germany in some data, so they are certainly able to correct for a bias resulting from the lack of East German data in the 1970 study. --gudlat@web.de 11:50, 29 Mar 2005
Backing up?
In general, surveys quoted by anti-gay activists tend to show figures nearer 1%, while surveys quoted by gay activists tend to show figures nearer 10%, with a mean of 4-5% figure most often cited in mainstream media reports.
This needs to be backed up with at least one example of each side, preferrably more. Also, the word mean here is inaccurate.
